All I can say is WOW!.

You have so much interesting content on your site that it will take me awhile to read all of them.

Do you have a main website, or site that tells us what you do?

thanks and keep up the amazing writing

peace

koorosh

I would recommend that people read an excellent article by Paul Gorski that appeared in Rethinking Schools (http://www.rethinkingschools.org/archive/21_02/sava212.shtml) to get a different view of Ruby Payne than what appeared in The New York Times.

Thank you for pointing out the NYT article. I had not heard about it.

I agree with what you’ve said. I don’t think it’s entirely true that problems in housing projects are caused by the governement- but that’s definitely a factor.

It’s an interesting balance. We count on the government for quite a few things that private companies don’t do nearly as well: fire departments, road building, public utlities (we had Enron up here in Oregon, so you can see if I’m leery of private control of public utlities), the USPS, etc, etc. And, there many things it doesn’t do very efficiently, but the USPS has still got to be one of the best values out there.

And, without personal responsibility, well… let’s just say things degenerate.

Thanks again for the conversation.

No doubt it is harder to escape poverty in the West Jefferies Towers of Detroit. Kids born there are pretty much screwed.

So I guess we agree in a way, if that is the complex system we are talking about.

You don’t need to be a multi-millionaire to escape poverty, you just need to create something of value for other people, a job skill. If you work a couple of jobs and manage your money you can get out. The big thing to me is we need to somehow get young men to start taking responsibility in the community and for the women and children around them.

I’m just curious about creative solutions… The poverty in the West Jefferies Towers of Detroit was IMHO caused by government… So now what… giving things away to the poor gives no incentive to change… so what do we do?

I hear you… and concede personal responsibility is not the only factor… but it must be an ingedient in the solution…you could give an irresponsible person 40 million dollars and it would make their life worse. We all know that. Money must be earned to create value in your life. Have you read some of the lottery horror stories?

All I am saying is… blaming other people will get you no where. Waiting for them to fix you will get you no where. If you start to make an effort other people are more likely to help you. The first step toward any goal begins with you. There is no magical complex system bestowing money and rewards upon people. People get rewarded directly in response to the value they create for other people.

Thanks for your reply- I believe I’m saying something similar to Maxine. No where did I mention large aid gifts, or expecting the government to fix anything. And, as far as ‘progressive’ or ‘conservative’ I’m just using the titles those groups use for themselves- I’m not going to rename them against their wishes, any more than I would rename you something other than, Steve.

Now that’s out of the way, I’m still holding my point- that systems have an effect on people. People have personal responsibility, and there are effects on people. It’s far harder for someone born into a inner-city ghetto with drug use and violence all around them to rise above their situation than it is for someone who is raised by a family that makes 6 figures a year, goes to a private school, and has lots of encouragement to succeed financially, as well as many resources.

I’m afraid that you aren’t going to hear what I’m saying- I’m not saying that people should live as victims- it’s just a fact that when you’re in a storm it’s harder to sail a ship than it is when the sea is calm with a steady wind. That’s all.

I applaud the success story you shared, and I don’t think it’s a sustainable model for everyone to build a multi-millionaire dollar company to get out of poverty. From my own experience in business, any company that is able to deliver a lot of profit to a single individual is dependent on whole systems supporting that business. For instance, the internet was developed first by the military and by the university system, and was developed through eventually through the efforts of millions of people. That’s a system, and it supports my business.

I value individual responsibility very highly. And, I think we’re doing ourselves and our communities a disservice when we say it’s the only factor, and ignore the immense impact that systems have on our effectiveness.

You make great points…

I believe the single biggest cause of poverty in the world is government corruption, followed closely by socialism, followed closely by fascism/mercantilism (some say they died, but they never did, the US system is part fascist and part mercantilist). Free market economics do not create poverty. Well we can’t be sure… we’ve never seen true free markets. Some may say the US was a free market in the 19th century, but it wasn’t. The government was stealing land from natives and giving it to others, slavery was a legal institution, the railroads were given government monopolies, the list goes on and on.

But systemic pressures are also a reality. The street hawker scenes in poorer countries is quite often the centre of some amazing entrepreneurial effort by the poor but they are quite often hampered by corruption of public officials, lack of access to loans etc etc.

Funnily enough, I think what would help the poor is what would help any country trying to grow an economy really; a decrease in corruption, greater transparency, access to resources (*with* accountability – business loans NOT aid), education etc etc.

As for the poor in the developed/western world – I’m probably going to get flamed for this, but I suspect it is more of a spiritual poverty than a systemic one. In poorer countries, the enemy is more or less ‘out there’; in wealthier ones, it is within. It’s hard to explain – poor people in developing countries still have a sense of honour, a sense of their place in the world that I don’t necessarily see in the poor here where I live.

Anyhow, it is always a difficult question with no easy answers.

There is much evidence to suggest for example that the progressive approach to aid in Africa is actually making things worse.

Katrina… is an interesting example. It hit one of the poorest areas of the US and I can’t even put into words how I feel about Katrina. But I can say it wasn’t caused by a complex social system, it was caused by a weather system. And I have little faith in government to fix things like Katrina. FEMA is a disaster. Who’s going to rescue them?

The word sustainable… I agree we can’t sustain this forward march toward larger government and socialism/fascism. It will destroy our freedom. If we don’t re-evaluate where we are headed, freedom will be unsustainable.

And… about the term ‘progressive.’ It implies that the ‘progressives’ are for progress and all others are against progress. It is one of those terms that I feel stifles debate. Just MHO. They aren’t really progressive, they are socialists which is an old dis proven economic theory that is hardly progressive.